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--Side Note---My husband looked at this site and he is on several forum boards debating politics and christianity and he found this site confusing...how in the world does one insert their topic??

**I am almost second guessing posting this because I feel that Laura and I are in the same ballpark but I'm still in the game and have a mildly different perspective on MK but definitely see where and why the flaws are in MK, of course due to an imperfect world full of imperfect people but again not all of us are like that. Nothing will ever be perfect and no one will ever be perfect so it's up to us to decide which imperfect people we want to associate with. I chose imperfect Mary Kay people!

I want you to read what I wrote but if you can tell I am a fairly laid back gal and hope any reponses I get are all done with a good heart. I accept questions or challenges but don't usually take alot of time on the PC to see everything and therefore sometimes it takes me awhile to come back and see what was said. I do work my business about 30-40 hours/week and take care of my grandma full time so if you really want to ask me a question, it's best to email me directly. If my response seems like it could be helpful to all, I will post it. Thanks and have fun reading! It's a long one ;-) WT

My definition of an MLM is a definition that has legally been described and this legal definition was mainly through 2 sources; my financial planner's company which is in the Top 5 (last I heard I believe it was #1) Northwestern Mutual and Mary Kay's Legal Department which adheres to VERY strick policies. Even our Executives have joked that they themselves don't like our Legal department because things are so..."Legal" ;-)

Here's some distinctions of an MLM that were pointed out. I could dig up the paper if I could find it still but MK Legal will give us a copy upon request. Again, it was checked by the other companies Legal Department and passed or she could not have become Personal Use.

We buy wholesale directly from MK Corporate and sell retail; therefore our relationship is strictly with them and products are not received through an "upline".

ALL our commissions on products sold are 50% no matter what our Career Status is.

As a recruiter or someone who brings someone into the company $0.00 is paid out on commmissions on a Starter Kit. We receive nothing just for signing someone up. Yes, Inventory is different but not on a Starter Kit...no incentives. You Director may have one but the company does not.

There is NO minimum for the consultants to order each month...$0.00 They order if and when they want to but there are no monthly requirements. If they want to get the 50% discount on products there is a minimum for the first order in a quarter and that is $200 w/s or $400 retail but that is it. Then they have 50% off the rest of the Quarter and that is called the Earned Discount. No matter the size it's 50% off.

There has to be a minimum or everyone would become a consultant and we would have few customers. There would be little success because all would do a pittance...this is my explanation of the $200. I am inputing this because I know myself and if I could have done less than $200 (it was actually $600 and $400 when I was new but MK lowered it and EVERY order had to be that high, no earned discount then)I don't think I would have moved up because it was that minimum that made me work a little harder. If you are in almost any sales position, there is a minimum. WE don't have a minimum that you are required to sell each month, just a minimum to get that discount.

Here's a BIGGIE...In Mary Kay we ACTUALLY MAKE money selling our products. If you read people are not making money selling, you have to believe me that they truly are not trying and there's nothing wrong with that but please don't point a finger and blatantly say it's impossible to sell...it's not! I have done New Consultant Debuts over and over again and that's where I go with my New Consultant and do a family and friends preview of products, that I bring from my own store to display, and I will take orders from these debuts that bring in generally anywhere from $200-$1,700!!! I can help my gals get started and they don't have to put any $$ down if they get those debuts booked! Alot of consultants choose to get an inventory because of the convenience and questions they are asked by me about what they plan to do with the business and how much effort they plan to put in. I ALWAYS tell them NOT to lose that enthusiasm and warn them that it will wane a bit after their first "no" or cancellation and if this cycle happens and they start feeling down, CALL ME...I am here to help give advice or maybe give an idea to refocus them on a better way to work their business that's more suited for their personality.

If it were not for my store, I would not have the huge tax deductions that I get each year nor would I have been able to sell almost $1,500 this week on my sale or $1,300 last week. The eye buys BUT you have to be wise and in control your spending and unfortunately it sounds like there are many people out there not doing that. Don't get caught up in the next prize level or promotion, those prizes are there for those who are truly selling and making money but in this big company, MK cannot ask for proof you sold because who would look through all that? Nor do they want to because you are independent and they don't want to infringe on your private business affairs. See you CAN be personal use in Mary Kay but in many, many other businesses it's hard because they require a monthly minimum.

Prizes and recognition are mostly based on your orders into the company because again WE deal directly with Mary Kay and our products come DIRECTLY to our house and we sell directly to our customers. If we were a Pampered Chef or PartyLite? (no offense ladies who do this...I love their products!!!), products would be shipped to our customers homes and there's a chance we may not connect with those customers again. But in MK WE are the source where our customers get everything and they have to see us again to get their products. WE build customer relationships and with this whole privacy issue going through the Senate with phone numbers and addresses, MK was wise again because since WE are the ones dealing with our Customers, MK doesn't have to tweek what they do with the information of our customers. Some small changes are being made to our Preferred Customer Program but that's very minor. Do you see the benefit in being able to deal with MK directly and having products/inventory in our offices yet?

Cut up that Credit Card and each time you sell, take a percentage to pay down your card and a percentage to put in a bank account for future orders and DO NOT ORDER until you need it. I have a MK Credit Card through Visa and I have NEVER paid interest. In fact my Credit Card gives me points each time I use it and for every 2,500 points I get a $25 check and do you know that my Credit Card has paid ME $600 this last year (capped out my points) and I have paid NO INTEREST and it's almost all Mary Kay ordering! Good thing huh?

Test Market what you have on your shelves to your customers and follow up within 1-2 weeks, if they like it...great sell that product to them at a small discount for trying it and you've got a sale. If they don't like it, you can legitimately do a product return but you HAVE to be honest and legitimately test market it. When you do the Online Product Return with Mary Kay you can replace any product that was returned with one of an equal retail value...that's my tidbit on stimultating some sales and moving products but I caution you to be HONEST!

I have to say that in ALL my personal research...the biggest thing is that you can't make money in an MLM and I will be very bold and tell you that I sold Amway for a very scary 3 or so months about 1 1 /2 years before Mary Kay. I was NEVER, EVER taught how to sell those darn products and that's exactly what I wanted to do. I was urged to call all my family and friends and get together with them to tell them about a "business idea" that I had for them. I was extremely embarassed when I was kicked out of the house of a guy I went to school with when he realized what I and my "upline" were showing him. I just sat there amazed because I thought, "If this is as great as they are telling me, why in the world would this guy have gotten so mad at me?" I picked up myself and went off to the next house of a chemist who invented The Edge Shave Cream (? if memory serves me correct that's what it's called) by Johnson & Johnson and he was nicer because he was a little more mature but you could tell when realized he was taken in on the whole scheme too.

Needless to say that it only took a few more weeks of being called every single Sunday at 4PM and being told by my Upline to order that I finally realized that it was a joke.

As a MK Director I never bother my consultants about ordering. They do not have to order more than once a year if they don't want to. If they have consultants then they have to order every 3 months to get their commissions and again (my impression here) Mary Kay encourages OUR working and Selling to continue to be a good leader. We can't just kick back and do nadda to get a check...it's set up so you have to personally sell to keep your team. A consultant can go 6 months without ordering but then they lose their team members if they go over 6 months and again this may look harsh but guess what...consultants go out and hold appointments and call their customers if it goes this far. This company encourages each of us working and selling and leading by example.

We are taught this: Book (the appointment) Sell (the products) Book (a second appointment) Offer Career/Recruit (share business with someone at each appointment)

I turn ALL the customers from an appointment over to any New Consultants; if there was one. I then book her debut with her to announce her new business to her family and friends and she gets all the sales from that, of course!

I give her the options of having inventory and in MY Unit, it's her decision but she can use me as a sounding board for advice.

So I've gone way off base from the original question here but I had to clarify. Can someone come along and argue with all I've said, sure they can. Could I be wrong that we are not a MLM...I guess I could be but I'm using Legal Information from 2 sources. Does "recruiting" make a company a MLM...NO!!!

Here's my explanation on that...my husband was recruited into a Tech School to receive Certification on Desktop Support. After $5,000 later (this was about 3 years ago but I know they still do it) he didn't have a guaranteed job like they insisted he would (he did eventually get one because of his persistence and my persistence)and he didn't need all the schooling they insisted he needed, only about $1,800 worth of the certifications were necessary. No refunds on what he didn't use.

He had at least 2 friends that I am aware of go through the same exact course at 2 different schools and each of them dropped the same amount of money and neither of them could find a job. The person who "signed them up" for the school is called a Recruiter. How about those head hunters/recruiters for larger corporations? They actually do find people jobs and get a commission for doing that...are the above 2 examples MLM's??? How about those who go into Massage Therapy or Beauty School, how many of those people are running around with Certifiates in those fields and have used it very little and are now doing something else? Or are doing it as a side job? Or have made it big and have their own salons, spas, etc...

Please ponder this because I think one thing, at least Mary Kay, DID do wrong was even use the word recruiting. It seems to be BAD in home based businesses but Okay in other businesses. What about the Navy or the Army using the term recruiting?

How about when I went to College for Nursing and dropped thousands of dollars to only leave that career a few years later...who can I go to and asked for a refund? If I asked for a refund at this point and could get something back, would I cry because I couldn't or was told I could but couldn't be a nurse ever again? It was on MY shoulders to go forward with school and it was up to ME to take what I was taught and make it work and pursue that field. So why is it different in Mary Kay? If I teach my consultants through Weekly New Consultant Orientation, Meetings, Teleconferences and personally taking them with me on my appointments and they CHOOSE not to "work", is it my fault? Am I a bad person or was it their choice not to make this work? Each of us in Mary Kay are building 2 things; our Customer Base and our Team and we CAN choose to not build a team and still make a VERY good income selling.

If you go Full Time in Mary Kay (30-40hrs/week) and JUST sell, you absolutely can still reasonably make $30,000+++ per year on JUST your sales. Our products are consumable and therefore we have a reordering client base. If you sit on your coach and watch Soap Operas and say "I'm full time but not not making any money, Mary Kay is bad..." then you are getting exactly what you put into it.

Again, it's okay if you are having that experience and are finding it's just not for you or may not be for you but you HAVE to be realistic and don't make a blanket statement that that's how it is for everyone.

This bologna that you can't find customers and "it's too hard" is also just that...bologna! You are NOT looking if you cannot find customers! Why is it that I get approached by people that ask me what products I use? Because I actually treat my business like a business and display the Image of a Beauty Consultant by wearing the products! Why is it that when I go about and do my day to day things and chat with a woman (for example this nice gal who was in the baby section last week at Wal Mart) and then compliment her because she just looked so stunning and I shared that I wasn't crazy, just a Mary Kay gal who noticed those things...she all but shrieked with excitement saying she loved the products but her consultant quit and she never got a new one...QUIT! That's the key problem is that people give up in this business.

Now please if you read this whole thing don't take it as a direct hit against you or anyone who may have read this and did quit Mary Kay or is going to...that's totally your choice and there should be no feelings of being a loser or a quitter but you have to get Real and accept that it was your choice. Like I said in Opinion 72, call MK corporate and if you are going to give it up...they have a lesser percentage but not less than 50% (to my understanding) that they will give you on your products if it's over your year but you are still a consultant.

It's pro-rated (I think) based on the number of years you've been in or something like that. Call Corporate (800) 272-9333

If one of our recruits returns their products, and I don't think anyone has shared this on the forum board yet, do you know that it's taken from our commission check over a period of a few months. Our commission that was received on those products is taken back. So if I have someone return $1,000 of products and I recieved 13%...I will have $130 taken back over the course of a few months. I have NO PROBLEM with this because this ensures that I WORK WITH HER!!! I have a vested interest in her success and our dear Mary Kay Ash was so very wise for doing this. We will be wise when we recruit and talk about inventory next time too.

If my husband's recruiter would lose their commission because he never used the other $3,200 of schooling, maybe that person would have thought twice about saying he needed all those courses. Can someone argue and say that the chances of returned inventory are small? Sure they could but I read in Laura's comment that she knew 2 people who were returning it and rather than making it sound like a bad thing for them and that people are doing it left and right...I think our Company should be praised because not only does she get 90% back but the recruiter learns a lesson by having a commission recalled and she may work with her next recruit a little better.

Sometimes it unavoidable that someone returns product because they do it in a panic but it's true that they can never sell Mary Kay again. If you bounce too many checks or claim too many claims on an Insurance Policy, you are dropped. It's a company protecting themself and there's nothing wrong with that. Mary Kay cuts a check, no questions asked, for the products returned. Where can you give your dreams or business a full blown effort and change your mind within 1 year. If you opened up a restaurant, who would back you for 1 year and say, try it and if it works, great if not we will give you 90% back!?!

Point #7 on the back of the agreement clearly states that they give 90% back and I point this out to all my new consultants and it's part of my interview process with prospects. It's something I love to brag about and not something to be hidden. As a matter of fact I usually circle it when they take the agreement home to read over it, ponder it and pray about it.

I do know of a few times that MK has allowed someone to come back into the company even after returning the products but it's after several letters asking to have another opportunity and it goes through heavy review. It's not for sure and on a per case basis that I've ever seen this but that also shows the heart of our Company. They listen to the reasons that you left and if it's something major like a bad marriage, sickness, etc...they may reconsider and let you back in but DO NOT quote me. I've seen it but very rare!

So, enough said and I lost the whole explanation of MLM (legal explanation) a long time ago in this comment but I just want people to look at the other side of this coin. We can debate until the cows come home but when it comes right down to it, it's all in how you look at it.

I do have negative days just like everyone else and can pick and pick at how I wish this was done or that was done but honestly, I have never seen a company as dedicated to their sales force as this one.

My last comment from Laura's last post is this: Laura you CAN miss production as a Director and I have 2 dear friends, one is my recruiter who became a Director after me, who miss and miss and miss and miss and about every 3rd month they make it. The company does send a letter but it's a form letter so you know that you have to pick up the speed but at that point there is no danger...they make sure to warn you if you're getting that close. NEITHER of them have lost their Directorship and neither are too worried because they CHOOSE to be that part time of a Director. They both make production every 2nd, 3rd or 4th month. It's not only when you are new but it's your whole Directorship that they have this grace. It's obviously more fun and financially advantageous to make production but you are not kicked out. When my husband sold cars many years back, he was fired after 2 mos for not "making quota" at least in this you are not fired but just warned that you may want to work a little harder. Even if you lost Directorship from it going that far, you can come back in over and over again. Try getting hired back into a car dealership if you were fired for not doing so well. Yes you could lose your car at a dealership and in MK but you can always get it again and that's what helps us grow.

Those up AND down times build our character and our strength and that's what our children see and how they see us react to those situations that make them better people and teach them lifelong lessons as well. They see mom earn something and lose it and watch her attitude and reaction. If it's "I will do it again and do it better" then they learn something positive about turning lemons into lemonade (borrowed from our Dear Mary Kay) but if it's "this and that is wrong with the company, my director or my recruiter, yadda, yadda, yadda..." What will they learn?

This company is awesome and you can't beat how awesome they are but you certainly don't have to join it either if you don't want to.

Many blessings,

Wendy Turnidge Sales Director (612) 588-1569

Hi ....Laura again...... Regarding loss of directorship.........my information from the company and others is that when you miss 2 consecutive months in a row......you are done. I am sure they would work with someone in the case of catastrophic events, however, those are the rules....yes you can miss a month of production again and again, no problem, however, it's the 2 in a row and I've seen directors gone because of this including myself.

Wendy: I guess I don't know how many times I have to say this but I have 2 FRIENDS, ONE MY RECRUITER who BOTH miss 2-3 months in a row and they are fine. They have done this their ENTIRE Directorship and have not lost it. One missed 2 months (Oct & Nov) and in December made it. They don't teach us to do that of course but if you miss 1 or 2 and then make it it's fine, no catastrophic event required. I don't know why you seem to say you were treated differntly. I have known of at least 5 Directors who have had the same experience of missing and it's only been that form letter that came in the mail and then eventually they make it. It may be that you just got overwhelmed and walked away. I have known too many Directors who have been okay after missing. I am in a terrific association with about 50 Directors and a handful are not making it every month. We also have no problem sharing about it and we give each other ideas and have Top Directors and Nationals come teach us so we can learn. I just don't get where your crazy experience came from, not denying it happened but I have never heard of it and I know alot of Directors. I am part of the former Shirley Hutton Area and there are lots of Directors but I know several who choose to hit and miss with each month. As far as I can tell they have no stress over it either. Wendy

Hi, this is Bug You Laura again........Please know that I am not discounting what you say is true.....shoot, I wish I would have signed under you and had the experiences you cited.....grace is a great thing, but please know that this was a true experience for me and all I am trying to do is communicate that across this message board.....perhaps it would be clearer if corporate would publish that information so everyone would know.....that is mostly my point.

I WISH I could have experienced the grace and the concept of a part time directorship as you cited, I could have flourished.....our unit was improving and I thought it was great, but in the end, with that letter and calls from corporate.....it was clear that it WOULD END if production was not there and it did, and the people I dealt with either didn't return my calls or were cold and factual....that's a fact, not a personal assessment. This was a real experience for me, I am not lying, I appreciate the 'other side of the coin', but in as much as those experiences are real for you, they are real for me too. I am in no way generalizing my experiences to be across the board, I am just communicating my side of the coin.

We made it the first month and improved steadily the following two months, the third (my one and only grace month as the letter stated in bold) was it, finito. I make absolutely no mistake about that and if that was the case that they would take directorship from you, which they did, I wanted no part of it.

I have persevered thru alot during my lifetime and know about building character and I have plenty of ways to build character other than a sales position that could be taken away from me. I am not saying this with a heart of sarcasm or discrediting anything you do, because as I've said, you are a breath of fresh air and I am sure God's hand is in your business.........God will use our experiences for his purpose according to his will, both good and bad and he will make good out of anything, even bad.

As you've said, MK is not for everyone, and please consider, that those who fail might just be in that category having found out it is not their cup of tea. I take huge, hard exception to the generalization that all who fail do not work their business or do not know how to take life's ups and downs and turn around blaming everyone......as I said there are GOOD, HARDWORKING women who made a choice that this was not their business, period..

Laura here! Thanks...you have passion too.....I am not out to hurt or deface the company.....I am out to present facts and yes, I am passionate about that as much as you are passionate about presenting the good side of MK (I am talking about the sales force). I presented to the lawsuit to bring about the point of losing directorship after 2 months in a row......it's what happened to the lady, she lost it, and like Eli wrote to you in #77, if the company is going to bend for some directors and not for others, that is simply not fair. I explained my situation and I did call the company.

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